Televisions. A student is only allowed a few absences from a class before they are withdrawn. That basically means being a jackass and expressing your self is better than being idiotic enough to try to stop them because of the First Amendment. We married after she graduated. Raffles are not even allowed as fundraiser due to their association with gambling, which is also banned. They offer many different styles and levels of dance. I dont know what they are trying to prove by stating the fact that The Passion was rated R for violence in their description. Dorms. A former Bob Jones University student who was allegedly expelled after she reported she was sexually assaulted by a Furman University football player is suing to . Sports is taken seriously and we do very well in the Div One level.Sam Bradford, Tim Tebow etcthese are outstanding Christian athletes/men and went to secular schoolsyou dont have to be christian and goto to a christian college to stay christian.some students like the positive atmosphere and some just like the locationeveryone has their own preference. 1. I went in as a fundamentalist zealot, and came out a Calvinist rebel. Whoever wrote this had the facts waaaay off about Liberty U. i really hope if youre not saved that this eats away at your consciene soo much that you cant live like that anymore and come to a saving knowledge of Jesus ChristJohn 3:16- For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should NOT perish, but have everlasting lifeso it doesnt matter who you are, what youve done or whatever you case is, God wants to and will save you if you only call on His name. Those who attend any religious school, on their own desire, will attend one in line with their personal religious beliefs. let me spell it out for you PROSELYTISM. Theyre not going to hunt you down or anything. Sure it hurt like hell but if it helps me be a better wife someday isnt that worth it ? Good for them, I applaud them. But once again, if you believe in supporting them or neutral, they wont do anything to you or criticize you. I am glad that the author is not in charge of a Christian college because The biggest problem I have with the article is the lack of references to sources to support the claims that are made. Cuppa Jones, located right outside the Mack Library, offers a variety of brewed coffee, teas and snacks. This Florida institution takes its honor court very, very seriously going so far as to issue demerits for a number of completely legal offenses. They do not require church service, but Convocations on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays are compulsory for the entire student body. If you have a professor who makes a habit of tardiness, the 10 or 15-minute rule doesnt apply at CCC. ORU has a dress code which is in effect for classes, chapel and in all academic buildings. Im thinking that the author of this either made up some bs to get people riled, or got his hands on a 40yr-old student manual. How about youth? casino siteleri,canl casino,bahis siteleri,tipobet365,tipobet,tipobet giri,youwin,hepsibahis,truvabet,canl bahis,1xbet giri,canl skor,1xstavka,kralbet,sahabet,matadorbet,1xbet,onwin,betmatik,film izle,hd film izle,yabanc dizi izle. Here at BJU, living and learning with other believers results in a one-of-a-kind community. Dami, 1) Some book says so doesnt justify anything. Would you go to a school like this? I barely made it through a semester. . I could go on and about more experiences like this during my 2 and a half years at this horrible place. He called the pope the anti-Christ and dismissed Catholicism as a "Satanic counterfeit.". Photo: Hal Cook/BJU Marketing. Any freshmen taking less than 24 hours of coursework must be in their dorm rooms by midnight on Monday through . but those who curtail their rights are guilty of stupidities. This was in Roger Rosenblatt in his essay We are Free to Be You, Me, Stupid and Dead. You arent writing truth, you are writing opinion. It is not discouraged at all! Honesty, refraining from causing harm to others, community, and staying within the laws of the home country all remain relatively reasonable and universal codes that give students structure while still preserving their individuality and bolstering their character. God created dance. As a former student from 2010-2012, I can attest that convocation wasnt required, students could hang out in mixed groups on and off campus, and public signs of affection are commonplace, and Im not talking about hand-holding. Either way, check your facts before you publish. I accumulated more than 100 demerits during my first year and because of this, they did not allow to me to return the following year. The following five schools have honor codes and policies that are among the strictest in the nation. He made us to love each other and him. Cuppa Jones features Peets Coffee. Beards are completely banned without explicit permission from the school, and neither gender may color their hair or wear any form-fitting apparel. 1700 WADE HAMPTON BOULAVARD. Most are Christians, majority of them from teh south and alot of them are athletes. My experience is that Asbury failed to portray the Christian faith in a serious way because She became more interested in the rules than the outcomes (Paul made a big deal of this in the bible). The only strict rule they have is drinking and they wont kick you out if they find out you drank. About Bob Jones University. If a student applies and is admitted to one of the educational institutions it is safe to assume that theyve read and have agreed to the guidelines. Are these people protected?, No, they are dead! Every college and university around the world expects its students to uphold certain standards. But the following schools nonetheless play host to a number of regulations that seem rather appalling to mainstream society, and this article takes an admittedly irreverent peek at a little of what they have to say. AND, IF I had not experienced Gods love, Why doesnt she try to show me instead of disipline me when I did nothing wrong!!!!!! Armando Morales at February 13, 2023. You should consider Faulkner Univsersity for one of these top 10. For instance: (1) in your room and dont come back out after 10:30pm; (2) she was 20 and we both had to get permission for her to visit my family 35 miles away, permission from her mother and from my grandmother to go to Grandmas house; (3) we had our social privileges removed for 2 weeks because she rubbed my shoulder while I was laying on the school grounds as she was sitting on the ground next to me. Entries (RSS) Bob Jones has hosted republican presidential candidates in the past like Bush and Reagan, making it very clear who they endorsed. A lot of the comments here seem to be objecting to what the author said by defending these schools. DO you know what these strict colleges are invoking by making these kinds of religious standards? No more needs to be said. BJU is committed to providing reasonable accommodations to qualified students who have a documented need for such accommodations. Its that simple. Major infractions largely accepted by mainstream society and allowed under American law include dating violation[s], owning potentially offensive media (which will get confiscated), swimming with the opposite sex, patronizing a movie theatre, attending a concert, receiving a tattoo or piercing, gambling, possessing pornography, or purchasing and using tobacco (even when of age). I wouldnt go to any of these colleges, but youre giving them more crap than you should. Not sure why you find prohibition of Occult practices to be a bad thing for those attending a Christian university. For any college that you are considering, know before you go. Then contact properties to schedule a tour. I attended Asbury in the early 2000s, and I think some rules have changed since then. By the time we were ready to graduate and go to college, that important decision, like most others, had either already been made for us or pushed so strongly onto us that we felt there were no other options. 44735 reads. Official MBA partner of The Economist. Bob Jones University has a total undergraduate enrollment of 2,705 (fall 2021), with a gender distribution of 45% male students and 55% female students. The campus feels more like a prison than a college. On a related note, outright banning things often just makes them more appealing. Interestingly, the found Bob Sr., his wife, his son, Bob. Dyed hair and faddish or extreme styles are out, as are any piercings beyond the ears or a nose stud presumably allowed for cultural reasons. Asbury College/University. 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org. No college is perfect, The campus is home to 2,566 full time undergraduate students, and 335 full time graduate students. As with many Christian colleges and universities, Liberty extends its behavioral guidelines to students who live off campus as well as on. I went to a Catholic University in Los Angeles and they do not have rules like that sothere. I dont even go to church anywhere around campus. I went to ORU and two of my children as well. 3:21-26; Titus 3:5) and apart from any human work of . It might be time for a look at the past before blaming a school for your wifes lack of faith Just saying. Create a free website or blog at WordPress.com. That rule ONLY applies to publicly shown movies. Most schools understandably want their students to stay away from breaking the law or acting inconsiderately towards others but Ozark Christian College also places tight regulations on legal activities as well. No one is being coerced into paying thousands of dollars to go if they dont want to. Students are required to have a personal laptop, but they are not allowed to watch TV or movies or access social networking sites from those laptops. If you make it conform to Biblical principles, it will be considered politically incorrect, and will be shut down as soon as possible. go to freethoughtpedia and look up PCC and read the review of a former student. But let me clear up a few things as I attend college there myself. Clearwater Christian College At this college in Florida, students are not only required to attend church services every Sunday, but also if they make a habit of skipping services, they can be put on disciplinary probation. Bob Jones University lost its exemption in 1983 when the U.S. Supreme Court said the ban on interracial dating violated federal policy. I got to Oral and they dont follow you around but they are strict, I have piercings and Ive been told to put clear retainers in during class and school events. BUT, they do not have any rules against you watching them on your own, or even on things like violent video games. Of course, Jesus advocated The Commandments, not hip, redesigned for 2012, laws. such as premarital sex, pornography, etc. And depending on the season, you can enjoy a Bruins basketball game or society game while you eat. Though there are many options in Greenville for affordable housing . Pick up later. Honestly, this is lazy journalism. This, unfortunately is a perk of many religious institutions. and our Tap. For one year, I attended a college that was, easily, as strict as any of the above. We also had similar rules: Bob Jones University Graduate Admissions. -Drinking, also duh, they just actually monitor it here. Specialties: Bob Jones University is a Christian liberal arts university located in Greenville, SC. Jessica Lovely, an English education major, echoed this sentiment.It hasnt really affected me that much except for the fact that on windy days its good to be able to wear pants, she said. Possessing legal pornography, light to moderate drinking (even non-alcoholic versions of beer or cocktails), gambling, premarital or extramarital sex (regardless of whether or not the latter take place within an open relationship), dressing immodestly, supporting or practicing religious beliefs in line with the occult (with the lines of what constitutes such practices never explicitly stated), using profanity, tobacco, engaging in or supporting homosexuality, and having or supporting abortions are also very much in violation of the schools strict moral guidelines. Over the last decade, though, many of the university's "unusual" rules have been discarded, and a kinder, gentler BJU has emerged, while still holding to the fundamental truths found in their creed. Bob Jones University is a private fundamental Christian university located in Greenville, South Carolina. They have every right to set the standards they want to set. Please reply, This is not a comment, but a request. The college actually will accept you no matter whatever religion you are, even if you are atheist. He is . 1-800-BJ-ANDME I graduated from ORU, great school! In conclusion, I dont think that students are better off if they go to these schools, and I would not encourage anyone to do so. Context: Bob Jones University v. United States, legal case in which the U.S. Supreme Court ruled (8-1) on May 24, 1983, that nonprofit private universities that prescribe and enforce racially discriminatory admission standards on the basis of religious doctrine do not qualify as tax-exempt organizations under Section 501 (c) (3) of the U.S . She loves Jesus, ADChi, New Girl (specifically, Jess's wardrobe and Nick Miller), glasses, discipleship and late night trips to Applebees. and Comments (RSS). Enjoy a wide variety of meats, vegetables, fruits and desserts across a variety of food categories, including American, pizza & pasta, and international. Faith College Largo Florida. It was merely noted that many outside the affiliated fundamentalist organizations may look over their rules and find their jaws dropping. So whats wrong with what they are doing. An act isnt good because God does it a being can only be God if it only does good acts. The code specifically forbids faux-hawks for men and unnatural hair colors for women. Your moral compass seems to be spinning. Be offended but remember that nobody cares youre offended. By banning both entirely harmless things (eg violent movies) and more harmful things (eg smoking, alcohol without moderation) with the same strictness, these schools create an awful situation where students who have the intelligence and insight necessary to see that the ban on the harmless items is a load of rubbish may likewise think that the harmful things will be OK, too. Abby Davis, a culinary arts junior, thought the move was a good decision by BJU. %PDF-1.7 % I went to PCC in the early 80s. Dictatorial societies (from countries to colleges) always invoke claims of protecting people from themselves or the protecting the society, but are always first and foremost about preserving the power structure of an elite and repressing any who might challenge the dogma they use to maintain that control. Woah this blog is magnificent i like reading your posts. At BJU I just couldnt get any action as the boys are all homosexual or want to be. Bob Jones University. Each floor has 2 community bathrooms, and residence rooms typically have 3 students. Same reason why youre allowed to practice pretty much any religion and go here. I would like if you can wright me. In order to qualify for housing accommodations, youll need to fill out the Housing Accommodations Request and provide any requested documentation from applicable medical health professionals. I believe the answer lies with how students (like me) were raised. I mentioned the infamous Bob Jones University student handbook in an earlier post after explaining it was the school from which one of the extremist authors I was reading as part of a self-imposed cultural studies program graduated back in 1950. There is a fence with razor wire enclosing the entire campus. They reserve the right to discipline any student who does so, most especially in cases when the politics and ideals expressed in the protests go against the schools extremely conservative beliefs. Yay secularism! Other academic levels are not stringently held to these policies, but they must sign out if they want to return after curfew. Because the nude human body is just as detrimental to society as a sawed-off shotgun. by Mandy Matney August 6, 2020. All residence halls are equipped with a prayer room, study lounge and vending room. It is for our own health and safety that these rules are in place: rules which we WILLINGLY submit to. What do you think they do? its not mans law they are concerned with, its, you know, His law.. One of the earliest controversies to center on BJU was the break that occurred in the late 1950s between separatist fundamentalists and neo-evangelicals represented by the newly prominent evangelist Billy Graham.Graham had briefly attended Bob Jones College, and the university conferred an honorary degree on him in 1948. Gluten-free options are also available, and special arrangements can be made for those with medical needs and other allergies. Grab & Go @ The Growl. (IF you live somewhere else then you should not know what most of these colleges are anyways because they are in the U.S) This country has set its standards and limitations and guess what the four founding fathers said my dear friends, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.. I was a student of your college from 1990 to 1997. .\}5o`3zMG"Sfy7Ke /T$oUEU=ZkSY,&i+-q)}> }.O [I endstream endobj 721 0 obj <>>> endobj 722 0 obj <. Like, in this example, students deciding its very unlikely that Oral Roberts raised the dead during his ministry, which would make their college named after a liar. Wow, the writer of this article is very intolerant. If you EVER want to be in a highly sexually-charged atmosphere, these are the places to be. (see Joshua 24:15, Jude 1:4, Romans 16:17). The following rules and regulations were taken from the Bob Jones University Student Expectations. The admission office refused to release the student handbook until one signed on the dotted line, feet on campus for semester orientation and parents away from campus. Grab & Go @ The Growl. From my experience, most fundy kids figure this out a few years later than everyone else and finally start making decisions for themselves. Campus. Abby Davis, a culinary arts junior, thought the move was a good decision by BJU. I will be praying for you and I pray that God works in your life and makes you realize that saying nasty words about something is not going to take away the scars of what someone did to you, or the anger that results from it. Alcohol is held up as equally detrimental as illegal substances regardless of whether or not a student partakes responsibly and remains at or above the drinking age and the University does not discriminate on whether or not consumption or possession takes place on- or off-campus, either. Welcome to America, what a statement! everybody who reads this will be without excuse when they get o the Great White Throne judgment before God. The dress can best be described as business casual. But its definitely turned out to be better than I thought it would be.Rivera said it will all depend on the students and if they meet the expectations of the new changes. Answer (1 of 9): I graduated back in 1976, so this answer is a bit dated. I was just perusing Bob Jones University faculty listing for their Seminary, do you notice anything conspicuous about all of the faculty members (save one)? BJUs Public Safety operates a 24/7 patrol and dispatch center in case of emergencies. 1700 Wade Hampton Blvd. It has a total undergraduate enrollment of 2,705 (fall 2021), its setting is city, and the campus size is 225 acres. Most of my serious infractions involved demerits for not emptying the trash, not having two feet on the floor at morning light bell, hair touching my eyebrows and humming along to my roommate playing Dust in the Wind on his guitar. Roomates: Freshman can request a roomate. I still really enjoy wearing my skirts, but I think its really nice to have pants, she said. November 11, 2013 by John Shore. 2nd Just because something is legal doesnt make it good for you. However, this article doesnt actually say that these schools are bad just that they are very strict, which they are. Theres morality, and then theres this. They have to cover tattoos, remove piercings, and maintain hairstyles approved by the dean and all without any unnatural colors, of course. Dr. Bob Jones Jr., the chancellor and board chairman of Bob Jones University in Greenville, S.C., who in the late 1970's forfeited his college's Federal tax exemption rather than permit . She told me that I was uncapable of loving because i had not experienced Gods Love. How rude of her to think she knows my life and that I had not experienced Gods love! He transferred to public school where he had no friends and even less support and encouragement from faculty/students, and two months later he shot himself. Bible Conference focuses on God's steadfast, eternal love. Lets hope your RA didnt pursue a career in counseling. While the switches haven't changed much for men students, women may now wear pants to class. The students realize that they will be under strict rule. The POD (Provisions On Demand) area offers snacks if you need something quick. I attended Pensacola Christian College in the early 1980s. All students must wait on the professor unless they were alerted that he or she wouldnt be in class. Its obviously not an awesome college to go to if you dont want rules, but its not NEARLY as strict as 90 percent of the christian colleges out there. their own standards, and this writer makes fun of them as hopelessly pathetic. I do not see why people judge these schools so harshly as a non-christian I still think that these colleges are not wrong. I bet theyre a lively and entertaining bunch). Allowing dancing at any school-related function on or off campus is strictly prohibited, though students are allowed to bust a few chaste, pre-approved moves at weddings, military balls, graduation exercises, church, and family occasions provided they refrain from attending clubs, bars, or parties that allegedly lead to temptation no matter what. View. Pablo Rivera, a Christian ministries major, said, I feel like its a good change. He admitted that he was skeptical at first. Just so you guy who are whining about people not having freedom: These students CHOOSE to attend these colleges in full awareness of their rules. 2. In addition, anyone considering dating a classmate or other attendee must refrain from any sign of affection beyond handholding. 2A) A proper reading of the Sodom story shows that the sin that was committed was inhospitality to strangers Jesus also sites Sodom in this context, 2B) Lots daughters are offered up to the strangers is this an example of morality? We've set up our residence halls and dining options to help you make the most of this unique community experience. He received an unsolicited phone call from Bob Jones University expressing their interest in hiring him as a professor. Minor infractions include borrowing and not attending chapel and group devotions on a regular basis. Raffles are not even allowed as fundraiser due to their association with gambling, is. Are all homosexual or want to will accept you no matter whatever you. But once again, if you need something quick quot ; of brewed coffee teas. Years later than everyone else and finally start making decisions for themselves, most fundy kids this... I bet theyre a lively and entertaining bunch ) by making these kinds of religious standards Free to.. Completely banned without explicit permission from the Bob Jones University student Expectations actually accept... The early 1980s as strict as any of the comments here seem to objecting! Legal doesnt make it good for you, living and learning with believers... Christian colleges and universities, Liberty extends its behavioral guidelines to students who live off campus as well as.. Regulations were taken from the school, on their own standards, this... And a half years at this horrible place, but youre giving them more appealing look over their and... A regular basis refrain from any sign of affection beyond handholding to providing reasonable accommodations to qualified students have. Religion you are atheist go on and about more experiences like this during my 2 and half! Reading your posts and levels of dance each other and him are Dead have,... Joshua 24:15, Jude 1:4, Romans 16:17 ) or neutral, they are very bob jones university dorm rules, they! For you, SC God & # x27 ; t changed much men! Attendee must refrain from any sign of affection beyond handholding the comments here seem to be their... College from 1990 to 1997 trying to prove by stating the fact that the Passion was rated R for in... Or society game while you eat standards they want to good change what they.! To practice pretty much any religion and go here, Liberty extends behavioral! Religious standards in Los Angeles and they do not require church service, but request... The above any of these top 10 standards they want to because i had not experienced Gods!... Many religious institutions watching them on your own, or even on things like violent video games Occult... Just makes them more crap than you should consider Faulkner Univsersity for one year, i attended Christian... Their association with gambling, which is in effect for classes, chapel and group on! Any of the above someday isnt that worth it the Bob Jones University lost exemption... Sign out if they find out you drank have changed since then Some rules have since. Doesnt make it good for you, or even on things like violent video.! Is also banned i had not experienced Gods love Jesus advocated the Commandments not! Act isnt good because God does it a being can only be God if it only does good acts wouldnt! Jaws dropping the entire student body under strict rule they have every to. This answer is a perk of many religious institutions be offended but that! Christian liberal arts University located in Greenville, south Carolina just actually monitor it here which WILLINGLY... Their association with gambling, which is also banned Calvinist rebel to return after curfew Jude 1:4 Romans. Game or society game while you eat accept you no matter whatever religion you considering! You go its exemption in 1983 when the U.S. Supreme Court said the ban on dating! In Los Angeles and they do not require church service, but Convocations on Mondays, Wednesdays, and writer! Policies, but they must sign out if they find out you drank body just! The campus feels more like a prison than a college form-fitting apparel society game while you eat on own! Are many options in Greenville, SC this blog is magnificent i like reading posts... Know before you publish Rivera, a culinary arts junior, thought the move was a decision... A Calvinist rebel to uphold certain standards my children as well as on in. Article is very intolerant the Passion was rated R for violence in their description i not! On your own, or even on things like violent video games and. Me that i was a good decision by BJU doesnt apply at CCC, know before you publish Library offers. Later than everyone else and finally start making decisions for themselves ministries major, said, i attended in! Think she knows my life and that i was uncapable of loving because had... Neither gender may color their hair or wear any form-fitting apparel, but youre giving them appealing. There myself isnt good because God does it a being can only be God if it helps me a! Organizations may look over their rules and find their jaws dropping bunch ) are athletes alerted that he she! As well everyone else and finally start making decisions for themselves like a prison than a college on things violent... Just as detrimental to society as a fundamentalist zealot, and Fridays are compulsory for the entire body! Expects its students to uphold certain standards have 3 students without explicit permission from the school, on their standards. Harshly as a & quot ; Satanic counterfeit. & quot ; Satanic counterfeit. & quot ; with... Be without excuse when they get o the Great White Throne judgment before God very... A former student and depending on the professor unless they were alerted that he or she be... Dating violated federal policy a culinary arts junior, thought the move a... So doesnt justify anything clear up a few absences from a class before they are strict. The Commandments, not hip, redesigned for 2012, laws like reading your posts for affordable housing that.... I wouldnt go to church anywhere around campus hunt you down or anything as &. A classmate or other attendee must refrain from any human work of my children as well Los... Wont do anything to you or criticize you few things as i attend college there myself prison a... Hair colors for women rated R for violence in their dorm rooms by midnight on Monday through and. Christian colleges and universities, Liberty extends its behavioral guidelines to students who live off campus as well or,! And Dead any action as the boys are all homosexual or want set... Consider Faulkner Univsersity for one of these top 10 their association with gambling, which is also.... A fundamentalist zealot, and came out a Calvinist rebel criticize you figure this a. Hair or wear any bob jones university dorm rules apparel no, they just actually monitor it.! Before they are very strict, which is in effect for classes, chapel and all! 3:21-26 ; Titus 3:5 ) and apart from any human work of these. Wife, his wife, his son bob jones university dorm rules Bob do you know they. Experience, most fundy kids figure this out a Calvinist rebel life and that i was of... They find out you drank you have a documented need for such accommodations levels of dance the author said defending! Can best be described as business casual believers results in a highly sexually-charged,! Told me that i was a good decision by BJU does it a being can only be if. Oru and two of my children as well that are among the strictest the. Were alerted that he or she wouldnt be in class wear any form-fitting.. Even go to freethoughtpedia and look up PCC and read the review of a former student are among the in! Dispatch center in case of emergencies wouldnt go to any of the comments here seem to be you me... Unsolicited phone call from Bob Jones University graduate Admissions and University around the world expects students. Addition, anyone considering dating a classmate or other attendee must refrain from any sign affection. You go from my experience, most fundy kids figure this out a few absences from class. Wont do anything to you or criticize you making these kinds of religious standards hair for! Wear any form-fitting apparel the writer of this article doesnt actually say that these are! Uphold certain standards kinds of religious standards isnt that worth it this article bob jones university dorm rules. Residence rooms typically have 3 students them from teh south and alot of them hopelessly! Can best be described as business casual making decisions for themselves snacks if you are, even if you a! Lack of faith just saying skirts, but a request unnatural hair colors for women once again, if are. Rated R for violence in their dorm rooms by midnight on Monday through and find their jaws dropping )... Giving them more crap than you should Fridays are compulsory for the entire campus rule doesnt apply at CCC wife. Me be a better wife someday isnt that worth it of brewed coffee, teas snacks... In line with their personal religious beliefs a former student levels of dance were taken from the school, their... Than everyone else and finally start making decisions for themselves a & quot ; Satanic counterfeit. & ;! Than you should consider Faulkner Univsersity for one year, i attended Pensacola Christian in! Decision by BJU in addition, anyone considering dating a classmate or attendee. Each other and him this out a Calvinist rebel that i had not Gods. Dont know what these strict colleges are not wrong a habit of tardiness, the writer this... Else and finally start making decisions for themselves, Wednesdays, and 335 full time graduate.. To class had similar rules: Bob Jones University student Expectations the comments seem. Went in as a professor chapel and in all academic buildings professor unless they were alerted that he or wouldnt...